Yellow Glitter: A Conversation on Mindfulness and Justice

And how our actions have ripple effects

I’m happy to share the great conversation I had with Steven Wakabayshi on his podcast, Yellow Glitter which highlights Queer AAPI voices. I’m honored to say this was the third time I’ve been on the podcast and loved that our conversation dropped during AAPI Month. Listen in full or read the transcript below.

Kim Thai: That moment before you're about to click on purchasing something, is your action, is your, your literal consumption of that transaction going to create a ripple effect that actually increases or affirms the cycles that we live in, or is it going to go against it? You know, a lot of feedback that I get, or, or folks that I hold in space with is like, well, my, my one action doesn't matter.

The answer is that it just does. That one action creates another reaction. And so your actions can either reinforce capitalism, white supremacy, dominant culture, racism, all the isms, or your actions can work against.

Steven Wakabayashi: Hi everyone, my name is Steven Wakabayashi and you're listening to Yellow Glitter. Perspectives from creation creators and change makers making an impact. This episode we're joined by an extra special guest, Kim Thai. Kim Thai, she, her, is a writer, mindfulness teacher, community organizer, and Emmy Award winning storyteller.

She is a certified yoga meditation teacher and is currently a student in Zen Master Thich Nhat Plum Village Buddhist Tradition. She is the founder of Joyful Liberation Collective, a grassroots community organization that provides the space and ways to find liberation within the oppressive systems we live in.

As a queer Asian woman and proud kid of Vietnamese refugees, her personal mission is to help others reclaim their power and freedom in the world. Her personal essays on identity and healing have been published in New York magazine's The Cut. Newsweek, BuzzFeed, and many other publications. Welcome back to the podcast.

Kim Thai: Hi Steven. Hi. It's good to have you back. And I'm curious, is it snowing up there yet? No, but it got real cold. I was like, Yeah, it's also real cold in the city. What's the temp down there? It's like in the 20s to 40s today. Yeah, it's 29 here. It's supposed to snow tomorrow. But yeah, I'm so glad to be back. I was just reflecting on the first time we ever did this.

We weren't like really friends yet. And it feels like so much has happened. We've, our friendship has grown so much since that first conversation. So I have a special spot for yellow glitter.

Steven Wakabayashi: Thank you. And as we start off all of our episodes, I'm just curious, what's been on your mind lately?

Kim Thai: I mean, so many things.

I actually just had a really beautiful conversation with one of my mentors about healing, you know, honoring our ancestors and how ancestral practice can be really healing. And, you know, I've just been trying to find different ways to share the practice through my writing. And so that's been. A really big focus of mine as of late.

Steven Wakabayashi: And especially when it comes to writing, what have you been writing about lately? What's been top of mind there?

Kim Thai: I'm really trying to take a lot of Buddhist teachings that I'm still learning, right? Like I'm on my path and hope one day I'll become a Dharma teacher. It's like a 10 year process in the tradition I'm in.

Definitely a practice of patience, but yeah, I think that there's so much about the Dharma that can be applied to our very modern everyday life, and so I really, you know, in the same way that it helps me. I try to share that perspective with folks. Like I wrote something recently about like the attention economy and how exhausting it can be to like constantly Have people be like screaming at you and being like click on this uh buy this open my email blah blah blah and I think so much of what mindfulness is about is like focusing your awareness and where do you put your attention and there's a big teaching there of like not letting it get bogarted by other things and, and really.

Letting it be an intentional choice of ours of where we, where we put our attention in the world.

Steven Wakabayashi: Yeah. For listeners who may not be familiar with Dharma and also Thich Nhat Hanh, do you want to share a little bit more about the lineage and what the Dharma is?

Kim Thai: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks. I can get really buddhist and nerdy fast, uh, Steven.

So, um, Yeah, so the Dharma is another way of describing the teachings in the Buddhist tradition. And so in, in all Buddhist sort of philosophy and perspective, all of it is rooted within three sort of major pillars or what they call the three jewels, which is the Buddha Dharma and Sangha. And it's these three jewels are like basically like.

You can't live life without these things, right? And, or you can, but you're suffering, the way you move through life will be a lot, lot more challenging without these, the, these three things. So the Buddha being not necessarily like the story of the Buddha, which is beautiful, but like the Buddha within us, right?

Like within our own personal awakening and what we can touch into ourselves. And then the Dharma, which is the teachings that came from Siddhartha Gautama, you know, the historical Buddha, and then the third being Sangha, or community. So, this is something that, Is really, really important to me, an integral in my life.

Something that you and I have shared both in building community, ourselves and together. And so those are just really vital. That's also really relevant as a master Thich Nhat Hanh's tradition who, who started Plum Village. You know, there's so many things I could say about him and you know, the tradition itself really resonates with me because.

It comes from a Vietnamese lineage and ironically, even though so many of these practices originate from East Asia and Southeast Asia, it has been co-opted and capitalized by so much whiteness in the West. And I know that's something you and I have really passionately talked about too. And so like, being in a practice where like, So much of my own personal heritage is infused in the spirituality.

Feels not only empowering, you know, it's not just an act of reclamation, but it also feels like home, which feels really, really great. And so, Zen master Thich Nhat Hanh is really kind of revolutionary in this way of continuing to honor where we came from and all the roots of his Vietnamese heritage and Vietnamese Buddhism specifically, and how he made it really accessible to the West.

Like, I'll never forget the first time I went to the monastery. Everyone was speaking Vietnamese there, and like, they had, uh, headphones. for the folks who did it. And I just thought that was so radical and amazing to be like, yeah, cool. This is, this is the dominant sort of language here. This is, this is the culture that you're stepping into.

And I think that I'd never really experienced that outside the context of my sort of extended family and maybe some restaurants in different Chinatowns, you know, in, in Texas and New York and LA, but And that was really so awesome, especially since so much of my spiritual path has been walking into a predominantly white space, walking into a predominantly cis white space, walking into a predominantly cis white, straight, able bodied, skinny white space, right?

And so to go in and, and, and see that, I was like, whoa, oh, this is awesome. And the fact that his approach. And his way of teaching can bring in so many folks of all different backgrounds, I think is really such a beautiful expression of, of the Dharma and, and, and his wisdom and how there is a bit of all of it that people can touch.

And so that's, that's what I really love about it.

Steven Wakabayashi: Yeah. And it should also be noted. Even abroad, in many parts of Asia, where you have a lot more predominant white audience, Asian teachers. Asian monasteries still teach in English because this is the expectation of how we serve. A cis, white, straight, hetero, able bodied, skinny narrative.

Let me ask you, just, um, you mentioned it resonated with you, but also as a part of the, also the note to add to is when I went to study the Plum Village lineage in France. The best food, some of the best food that these Vietnamese monks and nuns can cook. And then another add on and how it's also different, I want to ask you that too, um, but how the Thich Nhat Hanh's tradition is so much more of a modern approach and very mindful, attentive with also what's happening in the world, creating space for activism as a part of the practice and the lineage, and then also not having such militant practice where the monk and nuns who love to cook, you know, they're able to cook.

All day, um, spend time going out and about, they're able to have phones, whereas some monasteries are big, you know, you don't own anything, and they're not able to have any products, any devices. Specifically for you, why, why this lineage, and what about it has been different for you that it's been so resonant in sticking with your life?

Kim Thai: Yeah, for sure. I appreciate you bringing, giving a shout out to the food because it is, like, some of the best food you can get, I think. Um, yeah, I mean, I think for me, the Plum Village tradition, uh, so we say “Thay”; in our tradition, that means teacher in Vietnamese, um, when we, when we referred as a Master Thich Nhat Hanh.

Um, so it resonates really deeply with me because the tradition was born out of war, and that is very much a part of my family history. My parents are, are war refugees and, and, you know, Thay learned a more traditional Vietnamese Buddhist lineage before that. But he was kind of a radical, you know, um, he was very much about activism and in a lot of more traditional Buddhist lineages, like everything is practiced within the monastery.

Like that's where you go to seek refuge. But Thay was like, why? Why not bring it outside of the monastery? Why not try to get everyone to practice mindfulness? Why is it only within a monastic order? And so even that idea in itself was revolutionary. Right. So I think especially as he got exiled from Vietnam, his home country, my home country, like my parents home country, like because he advocated for peace, right?

Like he literally didn't have a place anymore to call home and he wasn't alone in that experience either. And so that's why he was really motivated to start this tradition in France, which is one of the places where they opened up their doors to Vietnam War refugees. First, it was really just like, how can he serve the folks who literally just got removed from their home against their will and, uh, and, and give them a home, a new type of home and, and, and a rec, in a, in a teaching that home is within ourselves and not necessarily a place or location.

And it's a really interesting story because he started really practicing with them and all these French people were like, what's going on over there? Which I think is such a funny thing. They were like, everybody seems really chill and relaxed and really sweet and kind. And so all these French people, like literally the energy of the mindfulness, they could feel it, you know, and all these French folks started asking him if they could also practice.

And so it organically kind of started growing in such a beautiful way. And. Now it's become the largest Buddhist practicing community ever, and I think for me that those roots of like, activism, like literally he started a new style called Engaged Buddhism, where you take the teachings and you apply it to every day.

At the core of that is like, you have to adapt to the times, right? You have to adapt to what the needs are of the community in order for everyone to be in harmony with each other. And so I think it's always been really interesting for me to see that in contrast to like going to more traditional monasteries where You know, the monastics don't even talk to you.

In Vietnamese monasteries, it's like, emoji sign, X up. Like, what? No. They're not even able to interact with regular folks like you and me. So, I think it's amazing that there's just this inherent infusing of we need to continue to find ways to re-engage and re-interpret and re-express the teachings that can really resonate both inside and outside the walls of a monastery.

Steven Wakabayashi: Yeah, I love that. I think also with the practice he doesn't take himself so seriously and so many of the folks they really practice this concept of lightness whereas when I was studying a ton of meditation ...you mentioned the separation, right, of the lay people, the visitors, the person who isn't necessarily a monk or nun, and those monks and nuns and other teachers, and sometimes they have facilities where you don't even see them at all.

And that's the whole thing. Yeah, totally. A little bit of purity culture, right? A little bit of, um, this whole aspect of, um, holding this thing so far away. And when I was actually in France, everything was free game for anyone. And so for the monks who were practicing in their own space, uh, as a lay person myself, they're inviting folks to sit with them.

They're like, it's a little bit more intense. You just let you know, a little bit longer session. Uh, but they're like, anyone is open to come. And same, uh, vice versa. And I think what was also radical was, although I think they're still figuring out how to approach the whole aspect of like the monk or nun situation, because I think with the facilities that he made in France, it was pretty far away.

But they specifically created programming where they would visit one another, and so compare that to also a lot of other more, right, traditional lineages, they're very big on separation of gender. They actually had affinity groups last time I visited. in France. So they had affinity groups for the queer community as a part of breakout sessions.

And I was very, very impressed with how inclusive and how mindful they were.

Kim Thai: Yeah, no, I mean, I think I think the sheer fact that there's so much homophobia , inherent in so many different Asian cultures. And I remember going to Blue Cliff, which is not far from here, from where I live. It's out in upstate New York and I believe, uh, Munsee Lenape land, also known as Pine Bush.

And I was like, Oh man, I really hope this isn't a barrier, right? I really hope that there isn't. weirdness because I had had trauma from my own culture at that point of feeling not accepted and feeling like parts of my identity were at odds with each other in that sort of intersectional conflict. And I came with my wife and Jess and we showed up and the sister had never met me before and she just hugged me for like what felt like forever like you know when you're like you're like ready to pull and she just kept on staying there and it was such a loving embrace and I've brought a lot of my queer friends and non binary trans friends there and they've just been, they go out of their way to make sure people feel accepted.

And I think that's extraordinary. And I know that might seem like to a lot of folks who aren't as familiar with Buddhist culture, like, well, duh, like it's 2024, but like, that's very, very, revolutionary in so many different ways and the fact that they accept queer monastics and the fact that they're talking about how to address people who are non binary and trans who want to be monastics, like how do they go about creating conditions that might be that way, like just having an open dialogue about it, I think is really, really radical.

So I think it's been healing for me on a multitude of levels too. experience that feeling of home and acceptance where in other places where maybe I haven't had access to.

Steven Wakabayashi: Yeah. Recently, within the last year, your organization also had a shift, huge shift. I wanted to ask you if you want to share any of those large changes, especially even the name.

I think last time we talked, You still had it running under a different organization's name. You had changed the name this year as well. And I want to share a little more about that.

Kim Thai: Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, we went through a big shift this last year where my non profit was, we went through a huge name change.

And, um, we were originally called Ganesh Space and decided to really let go and release that name. After a lot of, you know, I think of some of our community members from our South Asian community really invited us to think about why we were using the name, um, how it was in reverence or not in reverence of the deity Ganesha and, you know, how it could be culturally appropriate and, you know, as a collective, we sat down and really looked at it as a teaching moment for us, you know, and particularly myself.

I think I went to India and was so swept away with the yogic teachings. This was like, you know, six years ago now at this point, almost seven. And really felt a strong connection with the story of Ganesha in terms of being this elephant god, having an interesting sort of different half human, half animal body, being the sort of scribe for the teachings in yoga, and being a symbol for new beginnings.

And so I was really called to name a space that I wanted after him or them, you know, they show up non binary in some, some of the folklore and, and teachings. And then, you know, so it was really such a moment for me to be like, Oh my gosh, of course. Right. Like, of course that this isn't, this could be harmful, right.

To, to other folks in, in, in that it could possibly be harmful in the sense of like, me extracting their culture from them and benefiting from it right? And, and even though we were a nonprofit, even though our books are read, it didn't really matter. It was about the philosophical and it was about the sort of inherent aspect of the culture of honoring that truly and listening to the, to the people who said that they were, uncomfortable with that.

And, you know, it really felt like a moment where we could either be like, eh, who cares? Or we could actually step into what we preach, right? And practice that and be vulnerable with it. And that was really, really important to myself and to all of our other teachers to be really transparent about our process and our learning because This journey is messy, right?

Like, I think one of the things that you and I have talked about before is like, when you're learning about social justice and equity and learning about how to move through the world, you're gonna make mistakes. You're gonna trip over things. You're gonna get into potholes. And by pretending like those mistakes don't happen, exist or brushing them aside or ignoring them and not, claiming responsibility for your actions is another upholding of supremacy in some capacity and oppression, right?

It's upholding perfectionism. It's ignoring sort of the key sort of harm that you're doing in, in your oppression towards others. And so we were like, yeah, we got to be open and honest about everything. And our community was really, really receptive. They were amazing about it. And I think really appreciated how vulnerable we were.

I think it's something that the yoga community, the wellness community as a whole really struggles with of like, how do we move through and want to engage with these practices in a way that doesn't feel appropriative, that doesn't feel like extraction. And also honor the passion that they feel in wanting to share it and it's such a a relatable sort of personal conflict that I think we shared.

And after that, we went through months, like six months, I think, of looking at if this is a moment where we can pivot and learn, where do we want to move towards? What do we want to stand for? Right. And how can we be clear about that? And one of the things that we did like this big word cloud exercise with our team.

And one of the things that. The, the, the words that popped up were joy and liberation and collective because we work as a collective, right? We work as a collaborative leadership model, which is really challenging because the systems are not built that way, but we do it because we need, we want to, to, to do things differently.

And so, that's where we came up with the name and you know, that was also received really well. I mean we got so many different responses immediately that was like, oh, yeah, I want to I want to be joyful. I want to be liberated I want to be liberated by finding joy, right or I want to find joy I want to practice joy and then let that be a gateway for liberation.

So I think it was very resonant for people in that way and was really such, not just a personal teaching for me, a personal teaching moment for me, but also just showing the importance of language and showing the importance of perspective and, you know, I've always been really open and honest that, like, of course, my own perspective is limited, right?

And that's why I believe in a collaborative leadership model for our non profit, because I know that my lived experience is not the only lived experience. And if we're, if we're going to serve people of a wide and diverse spectrum, hopefully, then we got to have more folks in the room. And I wish that was the case for all places, but, you know, we're trying to set an example by modeling it.

Steven Wakabayashi: Yeah, I absolutely love that. And also, not being so tied to, well, we had done that already. Let's just keep going. And sometimes you see this also happening on social media and the media landscape, people, politicians, just dig their heels into the ground, uh, when they realize that maybe they made a little oopsies and the more that I feel that I'm learning about the world, the more I realize nothing is really ever, even as we move towards equity and things that are more equitable, we can always change and shift and evolve and what I'm learning more in this work is also where we are today, maybe we realize 10 years from now, what the heck are we doing, why are we talking like that, and the more malleable we can be to change, I think then we usher in more changes for us and our communities.

Yeah, definitely. And I think, I think it's like how it kind of goes back to our conversation just now about the Plum Village tradition. How can you expect people, how can you appeal and how can you serve a wider community if you're not adapting and listening to them, you know, and I think that's at the core of what it means to be of service.

Yeah, and speaking of service, I know a lot of your work has been shifting over to doing your writing, talking about your experiences, your queer experiences, your Asian experiences, and I'm just curious, has any of your piece, specifically written within the last year since we talked, has been really resonant for you in particular?

Kim Thai: Hmmmmm

Steven Wakabayashi: You're like, they're all amazing.

Kim Thai: Oh, I wish. I mean, I'm happy to have the practice of it. I mean, I think something that I've been like reconnecting with a little bit that I don't have as much in my sub stack, but is part of the book I'm writing, just half memoir, half mindfulness guide on reclaiming our power in the world by understanding that we're, we're born good.

Is that, you know, I've been really reconnecting to my poetry. It's been such a beautiful exercise of like doing something that I feel like I'm not the best at, if that makes sense, right? Like I, it's such a practice of imperfection. Also, I find that the places where I tend to be the most raw and honest and truthful.

You know, I have a beautiful writing group that I'm a part of called Narrative Healing by, that is run by Lisa Weinert, and I would recommend it to anyone who's interested in finding community through their writing. We actually are doing a retreat later in the year too that I can share, you know, with Steven to share with y'all.

But... I know when I'm reading something out loud, the way that it's landing in my body, the way that I'm sharing it is coming from a place of truth, right? I mean, I think. As folks like you and I, who are community organizers, who talk a lot about social justice often, sometimes these terms feel like terms, right?

Like in a, it's easy to kind of fall in this rut of like, yeah, let's talk about white supremacy now. Yeah. Let's talk about equity now. And it just to feel like vocabulary that you don't, you heard in some sort of college DEI class and so what I really try to do with my writing is to like, go down deep and dig into the truth of my experience with those things.

And when I'm reading and sharing, I can literally feel if it's coming from my heart or my gut, or if it's coming just from my brain, you know? And it's usually a combination of all those things *unintelligible* readable. It can't be one or the other. So, um, And so, yeah, I mean, I think that in the past, my other pieces, those, those pieces have resonated a lot with folks, and particularly I'm thinking about my New York Mag piece from a couple of years ago, and I think the things that resonate are just those moments.

of truths, right? Um, I, you know, that attention to economy piece did really well. And also, you know, I had a piece recently on like, why is it so hard for us to rest? Because it's like, so universal, this feeling, you know? So, and I'm trying to figure it out just as much as everyone else. And, you know, I'm just trying to figure it out in a way, in my own way, and sharing it in, in as honest and truthful as I can to be of service, you know, with, with the hope that perhaps sharing my story and my intersectional, with the intersectional identities that I hold, that somebody else out there can be like, this queer Asian woman with a larger body, like, is going through this experience and, I thought I was alone this whole time, you know, cause I definitely felt that growing up.

I know a lot of other people have, so in a lot of ways, I'm kind of writing for Little Kim too. Not like Lil Kim, but you know.

Steven Wakabayashi: Lil Kim, if you're out there, this is for you.

Kim Thai: We'll tag her in the post.

Steven Wakabayashi: SEO will pick it up. So with your writing, I mean, I mean, go back to that piece. Why is it hard to rest? Just touching on that real quick.

Kim Thai: Yeah. I mean, you know, I feel like you and I can talk about this so extensively that I think We live in a world where we are trained to not rest, where folks don't want us to rest.

Um, I think because of the internalized capitalism that we live in, it's like, oh, we are literally programmed to be working robots, you know, and to not have a life, to not have humanity, to not be in touch with our body or our feelings or the present moment. And so I think. If the conditions in which we grew up that way tell us that, and then the environment that we are also moving through reinforces that, it's so hard to do, right?

It takes really an act of resistance in order to rest, right? Like Audre Lorde says that. And so I think like, there are small and big ways I do that, and it's, and it's a work in progress, you know? Um, I also think that there is quite especially for Asian folks and ingrained sort of feeling of work ethic of wanting to succeed for a certain American dream or to be a certain type of model minority that I think is also ingrained in us as well.

And so it's recognizing. If you're living in the world to die, you're most likely living with capitalism in some way in your body or wanting to strive towards capitalism. And then I think depending on the identities you hold, that could be even more amplified in ways that you're not aware of.

Steven Wakabayashi: Deeper question part two, why do we keep striving for it so much?

Kim Thai: Oh my gosh, you're like totally on your *unintelligible* soul. You're on to this morning. You were like, I'm really tired.

Steven Wakabayashi: Hahaha... so tell me about that trauma.

Kim Thai: Fast forward 30 minutes, read your poetry on the spot, Kim Thai

Steven Wakabayashi: Yeah.

Kim Thai: Tell me about your mother.

Steven Wakabayashi: So I've brought some of your old poetry on air.

Kim Thai: Can you talk about this one line?

Steven Wakabayashi: Bring 'em out.

Kim Thai: Was this about your mother?

Steven Wakabayashi: Heard that Lil Kim.

Kim Thai: I'm sorry, I forgot your question.

Steven Wakabayashi: Follow up question. We talk so much about capitalism. I mean, on this podcast, we've talked about it, right? I feel like on social media, I see it all the time where people talk against it, but the machine is still running. And so I'm curious if you've had any reflections on why we continue to keep operating this machine, the meta of the meta.

Kim Thai: Why we because because we because we because we-one, it's easier to do that, right? Like, I think Kelly Palmer talks about this really beautifully. Another great teacher talks about RAS. Of course, Trisha Hershey. There's so many others, but like, I think in order to keep on buying into the system, whether it's capitalism, whether it's white supremacy, you'll have to make sacrifice, right?

So I think a really simple way of talking about this is like, what would it take for us to stop buying on Amazon? I can literally name one friend who doesn't use Amazon, and I don't include myself in that. Like, I prime that shit all the time, right? And so, like, it's like thinking through, like, wow, like, that moment before you're about to click on purchasing something, is your action, is your, your literal consumption of that...

transaction going to create a ripple effect that actually increases or affirms the cycles that we live in, or is it going to go against it? And I know that, you know, a lot of feedback that I get or, or folks that I hold in space with is like, well, my, my one action doesn't matter, right? Like I get overwhelmed.

Why, why would my one thing make a difference? The answer is that it just does. I know it doesn't feel that way. I know, especially, you know, when it comes to our systems of government, it doesn't feel that way, but the sheer fact is that there is, it is literally physics, it is literally science that one action creates another reaction.

And so your actions can either reinforce capitalism, white supremacy, dominant culture, racism, all the-isms or your actions can, uh, work against. And I think way I move through life is not necessarily having the expectation that I can change the system, but feeling the empowered choice that the way I move through it and my relationship to the system is what is going to give me freedom and liberation of it.

Steven Wakabayashi: I like that lesson a lot. The way you move through it is more important than the end output results. So as also a part of somebody who's getting back, posting your stuff online and your content, and I think it's also relevant to the conversation of capitalism to where we have TikTok shop, Instagram shop, and all these social medias have commerce directly integrated within, you know, how have you been navigating broadly the media landscape, especially as you're starting to get into publishing your content, right?

How has that been like, navigating it, and how have you been able to keep your sanity and your consciousness...present alongside your work while you navigate it?

Kim Thai: Yeah, I think I was really overwhelmed by the divisive discourse that happened at the end of last year after 10/7 and then seeing how much atrocities continue to happen in Gaza and how it continues to.

be such a brutal force of violence and a re-expression of trauma in so many different ways. And I think, you know, in terms of social activism, you know, on a platform, it's become sort of culture to be reactive and speak out immediately. And I understand that. And I respect that. And I also. Don't move through the work that way.

And I think that there's not a lot of space for a different way of being, which to me feels oppressive. So I really, you know, had to take a step back and be like, why am I on these platforms? To begin with, it was really an invitation, right? Of how do I want to connect with folks and how will my. what I hope to do and share with the world, where will it best be of, of, of service.

And so I really took a big break from social. I'm still off of it. I think one of the ways that I reconcile, again, that relationship between the oppressive systems we live in and having to have one foot in and one foot out is that I hired someone to do my social. You know, she's an amazing, you know, BIPOC person, and I was just like, okay, here's the deal, I don't want to engage in this platform, in these platforms that literally trigger my anxiety, that put me in a different state energetically, is not good for my mental health for a number of reasons, but I still have to kind of play within the game a little bit, right?

Unfortunately. And so that time away, I was like, well, what if I just had someone else do it? And, and I have that resource. I have that privilege. I totally recognize that. And it's been, like, revelatory. Like, I don't miss it at all. I deleted it from my phone. My fucking carpal tunnel in my right arm stopped because I was, like, so used to swiping, right?

Like, it's, like, amazing when you start seeing, like, whoa, like, these habits, this habit energy of, like, that you're not even conscious or aware of. Yeah, that's a really good expression of, like, Working within the confines of the systems, but still me, myself, finding ways that I could be free and, and finding ways that I, that it won't take away from the quality of life that I want to live.

Steven Wakabayashi: Deeply resonate with that too. Social has just been so, social has really changed in a way that I don't think has really uplifted alternative perspectives, uplifted diverse thought, ways of thinking. It's just really turned into like a typical media channel. You know, one time, Blue Moon ago, I had, uh, uh, uh, interviewed for BuzzFeed.

Like, this was in the mid, like, early 2010s. During their high, I interviewed with them, and in their offices, they had TVs that basically had a real time ticker of everyone's articles that were uh, going viral, who was getting the most number of hits every 24 hours in a 7 day cycle, and they were just competing.

Who would be able to create the content that would get onto the TV, and then people would be rewarded in doing so. And social media, with everyone trying so hard to become an influencer these days. To get content, to get seed, everyone is racing for whatever has the buzziest, uh, most relevant content. And then also in the news cycle, right, you have this adage, if it bleeds, it leads.

And how violence, how pain, how all these things are perpetuated solely for the sake of monetization, for attention. And so, I think what you've been doing is starting to head towards a more balanced place. I commend you for it. And yeah, I wonder if you have any tips for folks who might be feeling a very similar way.

Other guests I brought on have also mentioned very similar things about the convoluted nature of social media. I wonder if you, as we start start to near the end of the podcast, just any tips on social media and navigating media landscape?

Kim Thai: Yeah, for sure. And also I pulled up a poem so we can end with that if you want.

Steven Wakabayashi: Yes. Come through Lil Kim.

Kim Thai: In terms of tips for being on social media and consuming any media in general, I would just really invite the question of like, why? You know, like, I, I think, I think even just spending time with that question of why, why are we on social so we can be connected to people? Okay, well, are you really connecting to people in the way that you want to be connecting?

Does it feel like a meaningful relationship? Are you reaching the people that you want to be reaching if that's the case, right? Or are you just kind of unconsciously going through that sort of habitual nature of liking somebody's posts who you barely know, right? Or ignoring a DM from someone who you might actually want to connect with, right?

Like we start building habits on top of other habits. You know, and again, the question is why do you want to, is it because it brings you some levity and some joy in your day? Amazing. That's beautiful. Is that the only thing it's doing? Is it also inviting violence? Is it also inviting anxiety? Is it also inviting divisiveness, right, in your life?

And are there other ways for you to access joy and levity that are not? within a 30 second animal video. Which can be awesome too, right? I'm not knocking that. I'm just asking for folks to zoom out, to both zoom out and to dive deeper within themselves and see that why. And if you're feeling a lot of resistance to, like, letting it go, again, why is that , right?

Mm-Hmm. And really looking at this attachment and seeing if it's really serving to be something that maybe you didn't intend for it to be, and can you actually go back to that root intention and look at ways that you can actually fill that need? That you might have that is kind of being filled by social in a way that might not serve you.

So, and like, more practically speaking, like, just take a break to see how it feels. Like, if you thought that was all mumbo jumbo and like Kim is full of shit, then like, just like go off of social for like a week. And see what happens, see what happens to your eyes if they're not as tired, see what happens to your hand because you're not scrolling as much, see if you're more present or if you're more focused, or if you're having withdrawals, which has also been recorded in a lot of scientific research, like, that says something, and so... Don't take my word for it, just try it, you know?

Steven Wakabayashi: Mm hmm, I love that. And my takeaway from that is also there's one part which is the observation, inquiry, and then the other part is reflecting on how we're reacting to it, right? Where we can observe. Maybe we do have this compulsion to dig, dig, dig, dig, dig, and to follow. And then I really love how you pointed, you know, how Are these really your social connection?

And my reflection to that, just looking at the last 10 posts I was looking at on social media, do I even know them? Are those people even folks that I would want to consider as a part of my social circle? I thought that was very interesting insight. Are you ready for your poem, primetime?

Kim Thai: I mean, are you ready for my poem?

Steven Wakabayashi: I'm ready. Heh, heh, heh. Lay it on me.

Kim Thai: So I'm not gonna hedge it because I've, you know, uh, have been lovingly encouraged not to hedge anything. But, uh, I will give some background that this is a poem I wrote a long time ago, like maybe a little over 10 years ago, and I actually wrote it on a retreat the last day of a retreat.

Um, the teacher, um, invited us to write a note, a letter to ourselves. And then she kind of, and then we all put it in a basket and then she mailed it to us like randomly months later. And so it's such a beautiful sort of invitation of like dropping you back in that space of where you were after the end of a retreat.

This is a poem called A Note to Myself. Don't forget you are beautiful and strong. Take stock in that. It is magical. The road ahead will be bright and sometimes treacherous. But you will, you are, forging ahead. You are rising out of the sun. Being born out of the light, that is you.

Steven Wakabayashi: Oh, sweet.

Kim Thai: *Kim laughing* Thanks.

Steven Wakabayashi: Also, the first time Kim has read me a poem, so this is unprecedented.

Kim Thai: You saw it here first, Yellow Glitter. Listened to it here first.

Steven Wakabayashi: Yeah. That was beautiful. Ten years ago.

Kim Thai: I was trying to find one that's, like, not They got to be really intense, so it was like, what, what.

Steven Wakabayashi: Oh, that was fine.

Kim Thai: I know, but, you know, that's a good, that was a one that I, that's still, I haven't read that one actually in a really long time, so it's nice to revisit it too.

Yeah. And. A note to myself, but also a note to everybody.

Steven Wakabayashi: Two questions. One, how can people find you?

Kim Thai: Yeah, so I think the best way to connect with me these days is to go subscribe to my Substack. Um, all levels of support are welcome and you can go to kimthai.substack.com and get my weekly mindfulness newsletter and, you know, be a part of my reading community that way.

That's the best way.

Steven Wakabayashi: And question two, what is bringing you joy lately?

Kim Thai: Spaciousness for like everyday living. Like, you know, yesterday my wife and I stayed up a little bit too late playing this board game, Raccoon Tycoon. It was so funny. The cards are so adorable. They're like fancy cats and dogs and stuff.

It's also just like capitalism in a box, but whatever. Like I said, we're all learning and you know, and we're starting to plant our seeds for our garden coming up and I just think like, you know, part of, me stepping back and also moving out of the city, which has been a big update, has been just kind of giving more space to things that bring me peace and joy and not letting my schedule be overfilled all the time with work because that's the easy thing to do.

Steven Wakabayashi: And as we wrap up, if you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a rating and review. This is how folks find us on the different podcast platforms that you love. If you want to follow us, we are on social at yellowglitterpodpd. Feel free to give us your thoughts, your ideas, and also if you want to reach out to us, you can find us online on our website for also full episode transcript and show notes at yellowglitterpodcast.com. Well Kim, it's been lovely having you back. Thank you for sharing your adventures, shifts, and your moves. into this new type of space for yourself and your organization. I really appreciate it. Your thoughts here today.

Kim Thai: No, thank you always, Steven, for having me and for starting and continuing this podcast.

I think it's so important, all the conversations you have, and I just have so much love and respect for you. And yeah, I can't wait to, to hear this more this season.

Steven Wakabayashi: Thank you. And with that, our space is now closed. Thank you, listeners. We'll see you again next time. Bye, everyone.